nekare

Um, word. I seriously do not have any original thoughts to add to this, because what you just said was so dead on. Yeah, the Doctor isn't really all that great to his companions (I think this is best displayed in the ep when Sarah Jane returned); and yeah, I loved Rose, but you're right, he's remembering her a lot differently than what she actually was.

*pokes*

What're you doing, honey? Feel like having a chat with me on MSN? :)

*bats eyelashes*

It's never too early to discuss Who!

This is just a note to say that I almost never check this journal anymore, but I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up with you. Don't be surprised when I friend you with my main journal later today.

El problema es que Ten no le ha contado a Martha lo que pasó con Rose, por eso al final cuando se entera un poco de la cosa Martha pone cara de "vaya la pobre", pero Martha no tiene ni idea de lo que pasó con Rose, porque a Ten no le da la gana de contarlo.

Tengo unas ganas de Donna le pegue, aunque me gusta que Ten sea tan capullo con Martha, porque me da ideas para fics, Ten no es capullo con Martha porque no es Rose, sino porque no quiere llegar a sentir nada parecido a lo que sintió con Rose, es como "te trato como el culo para poner límites, porque como tenga que pasar otra vez lo de Doomsday..."

Pero sigo sin entender ese enamoramiento de Martha, no es tan guapo ni tan maravilloso, yo quería que Martha fuera un poco más como Donna, en plan "no me impresionas tanto", pero bueno para eso vuelve Donna.

Slap him! Slap him!

(I'd rather ruffle his crazy hair, but he so totally deserves that slap - followed by a hug and a cuddle and other things that I'd leave up to your imagination)

Amén. Nada más que agregar; excepto tal vez repetir tu tag: ¡¡MARTHA FTW!! :D

Thank you.

(I am vaguely proud of myself; I managed to be on Fandom Wank due to butterfly's essay. I am a card-carrying member of fandom now!)

YES! I agree with everything you said, especially the last paragraph. YES.

Hi. Can we say huge freaking ditto?! My thoughts exactly. And it's never too early to discuss Who ;P
I actually like Martha better for that exact reason *pulls out pepper spray to ward off rabid Rose fans* I honestly think he needs to get himself out of the rut he's in (which is basically him always looking at the past). He's such a pessimistic person sometimes -_- Yes he's still dealing with his loss but it's been like 3 seasons with off and on emo!doctor. Then a smothering of it in the last season. Honestly Russel needs to write him out of it or something :/ Hopefully Donna'll help.

Ex-freaking-actly!

The worst bit is that the nice moments between Ten and Martha almost always get undercut a little later (I was just watching Smith and Jones again yesterday and my heart was all melty at her intro to the TARDIS and then he suddenly comes out with "Not that you're replacing her! One trip only!" and it was like the show was stabbing me with needles). I can rationalise it with Doctor characterisation, but it doesn't feel, deep down, like it's coming from there; it feels like it's being forced into the script to make sure we know that Rose was Important.

I admit that I am one of those people that was irritated by Martha's disrespect of Rose, but I do agree with you that Martha had never known Rose, and besides that, was crushing on the Doctor and would therefore not like to be subject to the "BTW, Martha, Rose was so much better than you," thing.

It only bothered me because I like Rose so much, and Martha was set up to be my scapegoat anyway. But yeah, I wouldn't expect her to feel any other way.

Outwardly reacting, I had more of a problem with, just because I wanted Martha to be more polite about it. Though, it can be argued that she'd be trying to hint at the Doctor to shut up about Rose already.

And yes, Rose was awesome, she's my homie, I love her to death, but she wasn't perfect and maybe the Doctor is putting her up on a pedestal, but what I really think that is is his desperation to make it clear to Martha that he cared about Rose (trying to respect her memory, in part), except overdoing it quite a bit.

Rose and Martha probably would like each other--barring that they weren't fighting over the Doctor. ;]

As for Rose not being good for Ten, I have to disagree there, because that's my OTP :]

It's true that Rose could've pushed the Doctor more to talk about his past, but I think she got that it was pretty painful and didn't want to make him talk about it, whether to allow him some peace, or to give him some time and wait until he was ready.

I'm not saying that's necessarily the right way to go, but hey. -shrug- I mean, I don't think someone could ever really come to terms and be at peace with something like destroying your entire planet and race anyway, so maybe Rose had a point, just keep going, look towards the future, second chance, all that. Maybe sometimes you need to forget.

I do adore Donna though. She's such a boss. :]

This? *points up* All this? Sums up my thoughts on the third series to the tee. I liked Rose fine, and I understand that she was important, but the way her departure was handled? Jeeze. It's a hard universe out there for Martha, :|

..from your story posted on Life On Martha (It's really really good- by the way!) and saw this discussion, and wanted to add my 2 cents of agreement. I'm not really in to shipping and the whole romance issue that some fans push with Doctor Who, if I had an OTP it'd be the Doctor/TARDIS, so I have been especially mystified by all of the crazy fighting over Rose and Martha.

I thought Rose was a good character but I got annoyed with her jealousy in School Reunion and was glad when Mickey came aboard, though I wish we'd gotten to see him go on more trips in the TARDIS as a companion. I really liked his and Rose's interactions in Girl in the Fire Place where they went wandering off together. I would've liked to have seen more of that dynamic between them rather than Rose's clingy-ness throughout S2 (especially in The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit).

But I guess I like the episodes with the Doctor w/ 2companions dynamic anyway (Doctor, Rose, & Jack/ Doctor Rose & Mickey/ DOctor Martha & Jack) so I am excited that Martha will be traveling with the Doctor AND Donna when she come back to the show next season.

As far as 'OH, BUT MARTHA DOESN'T RESPECT THE MEMORY OF ROSE!'- Yes she did, when she found out the whole story about what really happened to Rose in 'Utopia'.
The Doctor was certainly not forthcoming with any specifics, details or any information of what really happened to Rose or what it meant, so what is Martha supposed to think? All she knows is that Rose is not dead, and that she's with her family, so what's the big deal?
All Martha knew for most of the season is that Rose was not dead, that she (Martha) was NOT a replacement for Rose, that apparently Rose always said the right things/knew what to do, and that he took Martha to the same places he took Rose (New Earth as the rebound companion).
Martha doesn't find out until Utopia when she overhears the Doctor explaining it all to Jack (while he's in the radiation chamber) throught the audio link. When the camera cuts to her reaction, we see her expression is sorrowful and understanding when she hears the whole story.

And then she gets the 'OH, ROSE WAS BETTER THAN YOU, BTW, KTHNX' treatment. Over, and over again.


Really? Smith And Jones, and The Shakespeare Code, were the only episodes I remember the Doctor comparing them and being rude? He seemed to appreciate Martha more after that, and most of the following references were from Martha. And the Master in the finale of course

But in Gridlock it's Martha asking if the Doctor had taken Rose there before her, and saying she feels like the rebound now. In The Evolution of the Daleks she tells Tallulah that she gets the feeling that the Doctor is still in love with Rose. Until Jack brings up Rose in Utopia, I always got the impression that it wasn't so much the Doctor constantly bring up Rose, so much as a feeling Martha got that he didn't see Martha in the same way when he looked at her. Well in Family Of Blood she mentions how lonely the Doctor is, so I wonder if she felt bad, aad a little frustrated, that she wasn't helping his loneliness. Not realising that the Doctor was lonely when Rose was around too (according to TGitF anyway).

Wordy, McWord.

And I'll add that there is nothing wrong with the idea of the Doctor remebering Rose, she was important to him, but the way it was executed and done at the expense of another is something that Russel completely failed with.

It's one thing for viewers not to resonate with the character of Martha on her own merits, butn it's another matter all together to hate over baggage that is not her own, but the Doctor's.

I feel like I've been watching a different series as far as the supposed Doctor bashing Martha over the head with Rose's memory goes. For starters, I don't recall the Doctor even saying Rose's name between 'The Shakespeare Code' and 'Utopia' - and no I don't count 'Human Nature' because 1) that was John Smith who was speaking and 2) He said her name to Joan, not Martha. In fact up to the point of 'Utopia' when Jack showed up, the Doctor seemed unwilling to even talk about Rose so tell me how exactly the Doctor has been bashing Martha over the head with Rose's memory?

Second as far as Martha being so catty in regards to Rose, I admit she irritates me, disliking someone she never met muchless knew just because she has a school girl crush on the Doctor. I genuinely like Martha but she's irritated me to no end with her pining over the Doctor when he's clearly not interested in having that kind of relationship with her.

I'd really have to agree with frelling_tralk; the Doctor made maybe two direct Rose/Martha comparisons. After that, it was Martha's apparent lack of self-esteem driving the Rose resentment. I don't think that makes sense, because Martha seemed like she was FINE until she met the Doctor, but there it is.

The only reason that Martha's attitude toward Rose irritated me is that, yes, she was actually lacking in empathy a bit. She was jealous, but she never really offered him any kind words over it. Someone, elliptic_eye, I think, pointed out that Martha's sort of socially awkward and that leavens the lack of sympathy some, but it doesn't make me like it.

He kisses her the very first day they meet (genetical transfer or not)

Which seems practically designed to screw with her head, considering that scraping his cheek and smearing her face with it would have been quicker, more reliable, and guaranteed not to be misunderstood.

And then she gets the 'OH, ROSE WAS BETTER THAN YOU, BTW, KTHNX' treatment. Over, and over again.

The "over and over again" part didn't really occur to me until I joined in with online fandom (for the record, I watched S3 and S2 more or less simultaneously and then S2 afterward). I'm still not really seeing it. Rose comes up at the end of S&J, and the Doctor is indeed rude. But he also seems to be talking to himself as much as Martha, and coming at it as a longtime fan of the classic series, it seemed like more of a "I SHALL NOT get attached to another companion, damnit, I shan't!" thing than a "I hope this chick realizes that she can never be as wonderful as Rose!" thing. Because the Doctor has gone through that pattern a few times before ("Leela, come out of that box, come out NOW, no really, I mean it—").

Shakespeare Code was a bit of a slap in the face, but even then, even sympathizing with Martha—just as you say, she's never even met Rose, and she knows very little about how the Doctor operates—I was inclined to give the guy some latitude. When he first brings up Rose, he's actually opening up to Martha. Yeah, he's opening up to her on a subject that's going to make Martha feel awkward and small and crushed; yeah, he seems to be idealizing Rose in his nostalgia—but the Doctor's not known for his great mastery of human social interaction (neither is Martha, actually); oblivious is his default setting. Also, he may have flirted in S&J, but that doesn't make him responsible for her crush; they're her feelings and her responsibility. It's midway through this little heart-to-heart that he turns into a bastard, and even there it read to me like he was half talking to himself—trying to convince himself that no, he's really not doing this Companion Thing again, he really is better off on his own… which, again, he's tried to convince himself of before (unsuccessfully).

Gridlock was Martha. Manhattan was Martha again, and that wasn't even Rose, was it? All I remember was "[It's] not [obvious] to him," which had her looking fairly soggy, but once again wasn't the Doc's doing. His "They always survive, while I lose everything" might obliquely include Rose, but it's not really about her, given the list of Dalek casualties—also, hang on, was Martha actually there for that? My memory's swiss cheese. Human Nature, as someone pointed out, was John Smith's unconscious regurgitating most of the recent events of the Doctor's life (and we never do find out what's on the torn out pages). Utopia was perfectly natural, since Jack loved Rose, too, and he brought it up.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying: I agree that Martha's reaction is pretty much human nature. However, it also seemed to be something she chose to dwell on rather than something being forced on her from without. She chose to put all this weight on the Doctor's initial comments; could she not have chosen to put as much weight on the times he thanked her for saving his ass? Mind you, I don't hate her character for this bad decision; it's as petty as it is understandable, but human beings are prone to being petty. Martha's allowed to have her moments, too—we already know she's big enough to swallow her pride for three months in 1913.

You know, I hate it when the insane part of the Rose fans keep on saying 'OH, BUT MARTHA DOESN'T RESPECT THE MEMORY OF ROSE!' Well of course she doesn't - why should she?

Exactly.

It's not something Martha should or could be expected to do. And it drives me insane when other Rose fans think she should know just from what the Doctor says. The Doctor aka "He who would not open up without surgery at some points"? Please. Just. Please.

There are a lot of valid criticisms of Martha but that is so not one of them.